Ban Clarification

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Ban Clarification

Post  Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:48 pm

Ok, because I'm noob please clarify this:

Ban pick supposedly is BEFORE you find out who is actually playing in the match. Can you please explain a logical reason for this? Pacman said to "secure your hero composition" but that doesn't make any sense. My perspective is that ban pick needs to occur when we find out who is in the actual match.

In one version you are banning in terms of everyone on the team including the backup, and in the other version you are banning in terms of who is actually in the match. Why do I feel the second is more realistic?

1.) Neither myself nor many others I think ban in terms of their own hero choices. Why? Because every hero has multiple counters. If I am playing X hero, and I ban only one counter that doesn't make any sense.

2.) Allowing Ban before we know who is in the match favors teams with backups. There are 3 teams without backups, and only 2 teams with "good" backups (iDra and Aloera). That means practically speaking for the rest of us we don't really have an option to rotate people in or out based on the ban.

3.) The point in my mind (at least initially when I heard we were doing this - I don't know about now) was to use it as an equalizer of taking away an advantage from the people who you were playing against. I remove a main that one of the people is playing and they do the same with my team, so the "advantages" have been equalized to some degree. The way it is now seems like it is easy to work around for some teams because of their backups.

So what are we doing and why?

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  pacman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 pm

all teams were asked to have a backup.

and: i quote "<Ban Picks>
-Each team will have a chance to ban one character selection for its opponent team for each match.
-Versus a team of 4 people, ban-picking will be held first and then the opponent team will choose who to backup.
-Ban-picking will take place just before the lobby is created. Tell the spectators (if none tell me) your ban choices."



what could possibly be confusing? if the koreans do it, we should do it. end of discussion.


Last edited by pacman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Aloera on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 pm

<Ban Picks>
-Each team will have a chance to ban one character selection for its opponent team for each match.

-Versus a team of 4 people, ban-picking will be held first and then the opponent team will choose who to backup.

-Ban-picking will take place just before the lobby is created. Tell the spectators (if none tell me) your ban choices.


Last edited by Aloera on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Aloera on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 pm

omg pac win me.... lol

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:05 pm

Alexander wrote:Ok, because I'm noob please clarify this:

Ban pick supposedly is BEFORE you find out who is actually playing in the match. Can you please explain a logical reason for this? Pacman said to "secure your hero composition" but that doesn't make any sense. My perspective is that ban pick needs to occur when we find out who is in the actual match.

In one version you are banning in terms of everyone on the team including the backup, and in the other version you are banning in terms of who is actually in the match. Why do I feel the second is more realistic?

1.) Neither myself nor many others I think ban in terms of their own hero choices. Why? Because every hero has multiple counters. If I am playing X hero, and I ban only one counter that doesn't make any sense.

2.) Allowing Ban before we know who is in the match favors teams with backups. There are 3 teams without backups, and only 2 teams with "good" backups (iDra and Aloera). That means practically speaking for the rest of us we don't really have an option to rotate people in or out based on the ban.

3.) The point in my mind (at least initially when I heard we were doing this - I don't know about now) was to use it as an equalizer of taking away an advantage from the people who you were playing against. I remove a main that one of the people is playing and they do the same with my team, so the "advantages" have been equalized to some degree. The way it is now seems like it is easy to work around for some teams because of their backups.

So what are we doing and why?

I was planning to do "ban -> then choose players" just because BoK #7 does it the same way.
I do understand your point that backup situations are kind of different between us and them,
but the whole point of ban-pick as I understand is to ban the key player's main character.
This brings back fairness issues in many ways since CT has only 38 characters unlike other AOS like LoL,
but anyway I'm gonna stick to "ban -> choose players" at least during the group stage and see how it looks like,
since as you know I bring all standards of rules from KR.
If there is any problem with that or if majority of people want to switch the orders, we will adapt that in later rounds.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:11 pm

K, I admit I didn't read like a noob, BUT:

If the point is to ban the key player's main, that was exactly my point. Only 2 teams out of 10 have all 4 players with strong mains. That means if I ban Soul Hunter, you put in Fang. If I ban Medic, you put in B9. This system only favors those 2 teams, because the other teams only 3 or less players have strong mains.

I know you adapt things from KR, and that's the way it should be - however there needs to be some flexibility since this is not KR and particularly the arrangements for this tournament are not the same in terms of consistency of skill across the teams.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:11 pm

K, I admit I didn't read like a noob, BUT:

If the point is to ban the key player's main, that was exactly my point. Only 2 teams out of 10 have all 4 players with strong mains. That means if I ban Soul Hunter, you put in Fang. If I ban Medic, you put in B9. This system only favors those 2 teams, because the other teams only 3 or less players have strong mains.

I know you adapt things from KR, and that's the way it should be - however there needs to be some flexibility since this is not KR and particularly the arrangements for this tournament are not the same in terms of consistency of skill across the teams.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:14 pm

Alexander wrote:K, I admit I didn't read like a noob, BUT:

If the point is to ban the key player's main, that was exactly my point. Only 2 teams out of 10 have all 4 players with strong mains. That means if I ban Soul Hunter, you put in Fang. If I ban Medic, you put in B9. This system only favors those 2 teams, because the other teams only 3 or less players have strong mains.

I know you adapt things from KR, and that's the way it should be - however there needs to be some flexibility since this is not KR and particularly the arrangements for this tournament are not the same in terms of consistency of skill across the teams.

Ok let's talk straight.
Aloera is not going to play especially in higher rounds unless pacman has to leave at that moment.
So if pacman is on, aloera is not playing. If pacman is off, we have no options but to put aloera in his spot.
That would make your choices much easier I guess.
Besides, iDra is added there just in case MishenEx arrives late like reaperman. That's what Barsark told me at least.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:17 pm

I see your point, but I still think those 2 backups and their mains are an advantage in this ban system compared to other teams. Aloera with Fang is pretty good, he has won his lane to Artemis before. iDra has been out of the loop, but he is still degrees above Bill and in the end it gives you a choice that other teams don't have.

I am not QQing that we don't have a strong back up like you or anything like that. I am just seeing an imbalance in how the setup is that I felt needed to be addressed.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:22 pm

No it's ok, thanks for bringing that up anyway.
But the ban-pick system has that fairness problem from the start as we adapt it to CT.
Even in BoK there are mutiple situations like some have strong backups,
some know how to play multiple characters, some don't have either of those with them.
It's a new try for both servers and an experiment, so I don't expect that rule to be perfectly fine.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Alexander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:27 pm

K. Still banning Soul Hunter Very Happy

LOL

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:28 pm

I gave you enough clues and I want fair games before anything else so go ahead.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Plice on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:37 pm

I have to agree with alexander where it favors teams that get backups. I think in the end it comes down to the fact that it creates an unfair advantage by giving those teams with four players more flexibility. I'm not sure how it works in korea but they are for sure not starving to get enough teams for a good tournament like we are. If a team doesn't get a fourth it is most likely their fault. There are plenty of players that can play. In north america though there just simply isn't enough players to have ten teams with backups. So those few teams with backups can totally sidestep a ban. TBH I'm against any ban picking though at all. To me its like in a team vs team of regular sc2, banning say zerg from being played because the current player you are playing has terrible pvz. It doesn't work like that.
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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  pacman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:41 pm

ok you guys basically said that tournaments favor good teams.
NO SHIT.

if you don't have a good backup, get one instead of qqing.

sorry, but i speak the truth.
mayb in this tournament its too late notice.

but, half the reason i wanted to make a clan is for this: having backups. next tourney pacclan will get 1st and 2nd place. we will also get 3rd, but i will kick the 3rd place team out of my clan for being scrub. Very Happy

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Plice on Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:42 pm

Because a tournament is so much better with half the amount of teams because all the teams got backups...Yea thats a lot of fun
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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  imtd on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:12 pm

I completely agree with alexander and plice, the bans should happen after the teams are selected.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Plice on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:16 pm

Anyways here is the thing, if the bans are picked after the teams are picked there is ZERO advantages. It is three people against three people each being able to pick a hero to ban. If you pick after there are advantages, even if it is small it is still there. Why run a tournament if you don't want the matches to be even. Another thing I don't like btw is the mentality of if koreans do it, it must be the right way of doing it. Even if it is the best way for them to do it, it doesn't mean it is the best way for us.

EDIT: Don't take this any of this as me being mad or qqing btw, I just feel pretty strong about it.
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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:38 pm

Let me think about this and tell you tomorrow what will happen.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  imtd on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:42 pm

Just because the koreans are arguably the best players doesn't mean they have the best tournament rules

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SadFace on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:46 pm

a lot of koreans hav terrible common sense... they just hav godly mindgames and skill XD

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Sareve on Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:03 am

I don't see why there is even any issue over this format aside from terrible players QQing about losing. Bans are hardly going to affect the best players given that we can play more than a few heroes well and have done so before. Lousy backup? That's your problem, stop blaming the rules and deal with your personal failings. Clearly there are only 2 teams that can win anyway, and the bottom line is even if you change the ban rule, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. You're still going to loooooooooooose.

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  pacman on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:06 am

sareve where you been? are you joining tournament?

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  SungJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:07 am

hi Sareve Smile

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  Cyclo on Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:58 am

Dan posted here?

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Re: Ban Clarification

Post  PurpleSabbath on Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:21 am

Aloera wrote:omg pac win me.... lol
Pac always wins Cool



Alexander wrote:K. Still banning Soul Hunter Very Happy

LOL
Hahaha Laughing Please don't, I want more Krk SH replays, they are so beautiful to watch.

That being said, I agree with your idea on hero banning. For example SH is pivotal to mainly one team and it would make no sense to ban him without knowing the opposing team. Banning your way adds a level of mind game complexity and favors the most balanced teams, ie where players are truly good and didn't play one char over and over.

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Re: Ban Clarification

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